‘Unbelievable’ waste and inefficiency at MoD, says ex-defence minister Al Carns

“Take tanks for example – 100 to 200 tanks isn’t the most useful way of spending our money,” he said. “They were ordered ages ago, and if you cancel them now, that’s sunk cost … that’s cost us £700m.

“Well, I think these are the difficult discussions we have to make – the cost of running them is in the hundreds of millions, and so I would rather take that chunk of money … and put it into those innovative systems that we need to buy.”

Government sources have indicated Jarvis will be given an opportunity to “reprioritise” aspects of the Dip. But Carns said there needed to be root-and-branch changes. “We have the fifth biggest defence budget in the world. Do you think we get a good bang for buck? We need to completely and utterly overhaul our procurement.

“We need to make sure a large proportion of the resource and money is spent this side of 2030, to make sure that if we get caught in a geographical confrontation, we’re ready.”

Carns (right) is shown mine-detecting equipment during a visit to RFA Lyme Bay, a bay-class landing ship which is being upgraded, in Gibraltar last month. Photograph: James Manning/PA

Carns said any new leader or party in government would face the same challenges. Asked if there was appetite to change from the current leadership, Carns said: “No.”

He said he understood how difficult the conversation about defence spending would be with the public, who expect a Labour government to invest in the NHS, schools and jobs. “I go back to my constituency andsay, what’s the biggest problem you’ve got today? It’s cost of living. They can’t get an appointment with the NHS. They don’t mention security at all.”

He said any new leader had to reframe the conversation around national resilience – alongside policies on improving mental health, youth unemployment and prison reoffending.

“The end state must be a stronger and more effective nation. This is about leadership and prioritisation. At the moment what I see is a lot of money going into unpackaged initiatives, thousands of announcements.”

Carns said he was deeply concerned about how the instability at the top of government and the potential leadership vacuum was being viewed by the UK’s enemies: “Moscow is probably rubbing its belly. I think it looks at the social division that we’re having in the UK and the amplification through social media as success for its propaganda campaign.”

He said he was intending to spark a policy debate, rather than enhance his own leadership credentials. Asked if he wanted to be prime minister, Carns said: “I think anyone who wants to have that job doesn’t understand that job. This isn’t about ego, this is obviously about service.”

However, he said he did not regret swapping his job in the military for frontline politics.

“I did have a bit of a moment the other day when I was walking home from parliament,” he said.

“I loved my job. It was my passion. It was all I wanted to do when I was young. I looked back at it and said, was it worth it leaving the military, a really good career? And have I delivered enough to justify that impact on my life?

“And I came to a conclusion, absolutely. I’ve delivered more change in this job and nudged the system further than I would ever have done within my last job.”